Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that 1984 has been re-written to fit the dominant political narrative (part dogma), it's a bit, well, Orwellian
The irony here: even in an essay made specifically about the author's intent and admiration for the source work, most of the few comments are here to tell her she's wrong about misogyny, lol.
Misogyny: I think you're clearly, and appallingly and tediously, to speak plainly and objectively, missing the point. For example, Winston disliking/hating women is due to a good number of mixed-up factors, including the sexual repression (by The Party, to redirect sexual energies on Big Brother and itself), his hatred of 'purity' (by the Party's definition), etc. Furthermore, Julia was attracted to Winston predominantly because his face suggested something unorthodox/anti-establishment. And more generally, their 'love' is very likely a misunderstanding at what love and relationships are - they are also essentially like confused, and troubled children. The Party has destroyed the conceptualisation of love for a partner. The world of Nineteen Eighty-Four is a very bastardised universe. Winston is not automatically a patriarchal (whatever that word means - somehow ubiquitously) women-hating monster (for the one-dimensional reason you describe).
Furthermore, Winston remarks and is well aware, in the classic novel, that Julia has qualities he lacks such as being able to discern things he can't, and she's more of an engineer and pragmatic character. She may have a keen operational intelligence. I can't begin to write more regarding how ferociously wrong this understanding of the novel and its characters is. Airstrip One is not a 'normal' place, emotions, relationships, sex is all mixed up. Orwell
was painting a far greater canvas than seeing one specific topical matter where it doesn't exist because of (ironically - the adamant-minded psychology of the world of Nineteen Eighty-Four that The Party subscribes to and stamps into people!) cognitive biases.
Thank you Sandra Newman. You hit the nerve on spot with your perception of a male reader of 1984 who felt love and empathy for Winston, up until he offered Julia in his place. This was at first shocking and disappointing. But this was the desired reaction from Orwell.
I feel the misogyny is intentional. We see through the view through Winston- who represents the common man and, who in the story has a twisted view of what love is and what women are to be to him. His violent sexual fantasy with Julia, his hatred for his wife, him sleeping with a prostitute- who he had seen was an old woman missing teeth and still going through with it- is all intentional to show his disfunction with sex and views of women. It appears misogynistic, because we see through Winston's eyes, and I believe Orwell did this intentionally to show how deeply certain political ideologies affect and destroy one's ability to see the opposite sex as an equal or human to have a deep and meaningful relationship with. Because having a relationship is outside of the Party's control, people who even are affectionate with each other are not allowed to be married. What proves this further is that with Winston's progression, he begins to have more understanding and even empathy. The Prole Woman who would sing outside his window, who he never thought much of, he had come to admire her and even call her 'beautiful', we see with his entitlement and paranoia with being denied sex with Julia dissipate as he realizes that it must me something that 'normal' couples must deal with. He begins to bare the fruits of a man who is starting to admire and notice women outside of himself and not resent or be disgusted by them because of the purpose they do or don't serve to him. This is intentional progression in the story to show us the further from the Party Winston is, the more 'human' he becomes. A big support to this being that Julia was his final trial, the ultimate betrayal, and him coming to 'love' B.B at the end of the story. Meaning that the only thing keeping him from truly loving Big Brother was his own love for Julia, which was sprouted by hate for B.B.
To add on, I see surprising similarities in young men and boys who are influenced by extreme right-wing propaganda and pornography to Winston and his violent hateful thoughts toward Julia in the beginning of the book. Because of this sense of entitlement, there is a great sexual frustration projected onto women because men feel that women ought to satisfy them. And this entitlement can only exist if the thought that women are meant to satisfy men and are not by extension, their own person. Now this is where I see the differences end, because Winston hates the purity culture in the party and is infatuated with Julia even more because she has been with many men and he makes it known. But although the obvious similarities are gone, there is still a shameful obsession and infatuation with promiscuous women in this extreme right-wing ideology we see today. Men constantly discussing, degrading, and judging women who have pasts and promoting that they and others deserve a 'pure' woman, someone untouched by another man. But they can't help but debate them, discuss them, and to watch them through their screens for their own pleasure.
Now Julia is totally separate from Winston and a very interesting and complex character. Just because she 'appears' shallow, it is not due to her being a plot device for Winston only, but to be another reflection of how the Party's political ideology has affected and shaped her view on her own self. I know many women affected by the modern ideas I have mentioned, and in rebellion or in submission, they perpetuate things that still leave them in an area to constantly be under pressure. A woman is openly promiscuous, she is talked of and watched, a woman is 'pure' and celibate, she is examined and still watched and talked of.
I am well aware there is much to be explored and much more to be elaborated on my thoughts and words. But I was moved to put my words here and am curious to see any thoughts or opinions that agree or disagree.
I want to re-read 1984 now that I've read your incisive comments. I remember seeing the film in 1984 and thinking that the scene with Julia and Winston making love away from the city was the most romantic cinematic moment imaginable. The optimism of freedom from oppression lingers in me. Despite what is happening In the world.
Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that 1984 has been re-written to fit the dominant political narrative (part dogma), it's a bit, well, Orwellian
The only irony I see is that you’ve missed the point of the message and you believe equality is dogma.
Oh we're all equal, but some are more equal than others. Four legs good, two legs baaaad...
It’s like you get most of the material but can’t see how you’ve misplaced it
The irony here: even in an essay made specifically about the author's intent and admiration for the source work, most of the few comments are here to tell her she's wrong about misogyny, lol.
Ah, I see you're from the Alanis Morrissette school of thought regarding irony then, lol.
Misogyny: I think you're clearly, and appallingly and tediously, to speak plainly and objectively, missing the point. For example, Winston disliking/hating women is due to a good number of mixed-up factors, including the sexual repression (by The Party, to redirect sexual energies on Big Brother and itself), his hatred of 'purity' (by the Party's definition), etc. Furthermore, Julia was attracted to Winston predominantly because his face suggested something unorthodox/anti-establishment. And more generally, their 'love' is very likely a misunderstanding at what love and relationships are - they are also essentially like confused, and troubled children. The Party has destroyed the conceptualisation of love for a partner. The world of Nineteen Eighty-Four is a very bastardised universe. Winston is not automatically a patriarchal (whatever that word means - somehow ubiquitously) women-hating monster (for the one-dimensional reason you describe).
Furthermore, Winston remarks and is well aware, in the classic novel, that Julia has qualities he lacks such as being able to discern things he can't, and she's more of an engineer and pragmatic character. She may have a keen operational intelligence. I can't begin to write more regarding how ferociously wrong this understanding of the novel and its characters is. Airstrip One is not a 'normal' place, emotions, relationships, sex is all mixed up. Orwell
was painting a far greater canvas than seeing one specific topical matter where it doesn't exist because of (ironically - the adamant-minded psychology of the world of Nineteen Eighty-Four that The Party subscribes to and stamps into people!) cognitive biases.
Thank you Sandra Newman. You hit the nerve on spot with your perception of a male reader of 1984 who felt love and empathy for Winston, up until he offered Julia in his place. This was at first shocking and disappointing. But this was the desired reaction from Orwell.
I feel the misogyny is intentional. We see through the view through Winston- who represents the common man and, who in the story has a twisted view of what love is and what women are to be to him. His violent sexual fantasy with Julia, his hatred for his wife, him sleeping with a prostitute- who he had seen was an old woman missing teeth and still going through with it- is all intentional to show his disfunction with sex and views of women. It appears misogynistic, because we see through Winston's eyes, and I believe Orwell did this intentionally to show how deeply certain political ideologies affect and destroy one's ability to see the opposite sex as an equal or human to have a deep and meaningful relationship with. Because having a relationship is outside of the Party's control, people who even are affectionate with each other are not allowed to be married. What proves this further is that with Winston's progression, he begins to have more understanding and even empathy. The Prole Woman who would sing outside his window, who he never thought much of, he had come to admire her and even call her 'beautiful', we see with his entitlement and paranoia with being denied sex with Julia dissipate as he realizes that it must me something that 'normal' couples must deal with. He begins to bare the fruits of a man who is starting to admire and notice women outside of himself and not resent or be disgusted by them because of the purpose they do or don't serve to him. This is intentional progression in the story to show us the further from the Party Winston is, the more 'human' he becomes. A big support to this being that Julia was his final trial, the ultimate betrayal, and him coming to 'love' B.B at the end of the story. Meaning that the only thing keeping him from truly loving Big Brother was his own love for Julia, which was sprouted by hate for B.B.
To add on, I see surprising similarities in young men and boys who are influenced by extreme right-wing propaganda and pornography to Winston and his violent hateful thoughts toward Julia in the beginning of the book. Because of this sense of entitlement, there is a great sexual frustration projected onto women because men feel that women ought to satisfy them. And this entitlement can only exist if the thought that women are meant to satisfy men and are not by extension, their own person. Now this is where I see the differences end, because Winston hates the purity culture in the party and is infatuated with Julia even more because she has been with many men and he makes it known. But although the obvious similarities are gone, there is still a shameful obsession and infatuation with promiscuous women in this extreme right-wing ideology we see today. Men constantly discussing, degrading, and judging women who have pasts and promoting that they and others deserve a 'pure' woman, someone untouched by another man. But they can't help but debate them, discuss them, and to watch them through their screens for their own pleasure.
Now Julia is totally separate from Winston and a very interesting and complex character. Just because she 'appears' shallow, it is not due to her being a plot device for Winston only, but to be another reflection of how the Party's political ideology has affected and shaped her view on her own self. I know many women affected by the modern ideas I have mentioned, and in rebellion or in submission, they perpetuate things that still leave them in an area to constantly be under pressure. A woman is openly promiscuous, she is talked of and watched, a woman is 'pure' and celibate, she is examined and still watched and talked of.
I am well aware there is much to be explored and much more to be elaborated on my thoughts and words. But I was moved to put my words here and am curious to see any thoughts or opinions that agree or disagree.
the Mike Radford 1984 is very good and was made on a shoestring....
its not a dogmatic book it adds brilliantly to the original and is wry hard and odd. A compelling character she is no fashionable 21 c person
Alas, women are natural totalitarians. So there's that.
I want to re-read 1984 now that I've read your incisive comments. I remember seeing the film in 1984 and thinking that the scene with Julia and Winston making love away from the city was the most romantic cinematic moment imaginable. The optimism of freedom from oppression lingers in me. Despite what is happening In the world.